Ren’s been having a hard time lately. She never does what she’s told the first time. She spends lots of time in time out. And she lies. Lots.
So it’s Clamp Down On Ren time here at La Casa Loony Tunes, with some interesting results.
“Who pulled all the toilet-paper-book-marks-out-of-Mare’s-Daring-Book-For-Girls-Ren-I-am-looking-at-you.”
“Not me. I didn’t, Momma.”
“Well, Mare didn’t. I didn’t. And I don’t see any toilet-paper thieving fairies running around. Therefore –”
“Momma, I didn’t.”
“Think, Ren. Think about whether you really want to lie to me.”
Blink. Blink.
She puts a finger to her forehead and squinches up her eyes.
“I will think about whether or not I want to lie to you, Momma.”
“Eden did it.”
“Eden. Eden drew on the floor in purple marker? The girl who can’t sit unaided, who drools herself all day long? Whose idea of a rocking good time is watching a ceiling fan. That Eden?”
“Momma can I have a treat?”
“No.”
“How about one gummy bear?”
“No.”
“How about one little tiny just one gummy bear.”
“Karenna, we are working on taking ‘no’ for an answer, remember? Doing as Momma says the first time. What did I say?”
“Just one gummy bear.”
“Karenna, go sit in time out.”
“I’ll do it if you give me a gummy bear.”
“I don’t like the chicken.”
“Okay. You can have an apple.”
“I’m bored with apples.”
“Apple or nothing.”
“That’s not very nice, Momma, I’m your baby, now make me some rice and gummy bears.”
Stranger in a store, leaning over Eden: OOOOO IS THAT THE CUTEST WITTLE BITTY –
Ren: Please do not touch our baby.
Stranger: (Steps back as if struck)
Ren: You haffa ask, and then you haffa wash your hands if you want to touch her. She’s been sick and she’s our baby and please don’t touch her. (Little voice breaks)
Stranger: Well, you certainly are a bright one, aren’t you?
Ren: Did you hear what I said you can’t touch her she’s been sick and we don’t like it and you shouldn’t touch other people’s babies what if she doesn’t like to be touched?
Normally I get there before it escalates to this point.
I prefer not to hurt the feelings of strangers. But I am conflicted because it really is significant, touching a newborn with unwashed hands. And in Eden’s case, it really could threaten her health fast. My trick when a stranger does this is to Purell Eden’s hands right after they touch them. Sometimes the person takes the hint. Ren is always incensed and when I am there, I just handle it and tell her I’m taking care of it and it’s okay.
Sometimes I just don’t get there fast enough.
The woman is looking at me, waiting for me to make it right for her. I think she expects me to scold Ren for being rude and direct.
I simply won’t do it, she sees that, and walks away.
She is embarassed, and I am sorry. But I am also realizing that it’s a funny value the culture places on things when the woman’s embarassment is supposed to trump Ren’s ferocity for her sister, her dignity, and the fact she is right.
Ren’s not old enough to be tactful. And I won’t scold her for standing up to an adult to protect her sister.
“Good job, Sweetheart,” I put my arms around her.
“I love her too much,” she says into my shoulder. “Why do people touch her?”
“Because she’s cute. They did it to you when you were a baby, too. I think they think that because she can’t say anything about it, it’s okay.”
“But I can say something,” she says.
“Yes,” I laugh. “I think everyone knows that now.”
Number of people — strangers and relatives — who’ve said, “Ren’s just like me:” 12
Number of people — friends and family — who’ve said, “She’s just like her mother:” (THIS PORTION CENSORED)
So how do you keep a Ren in timeout? I’ve got a daughter just a few months younger, just as verbal and ferocious…and when we put her in timeout, she runs out. (We can spend an hour chasing her down and putting her back in timeout over and over again). How do you do it?
Love that! Good for you Ren! Every baby should have a big sister like that.
Elizabeth — I spend an hour chasing her and putting her back into time out.
Watch Super Nanny — she really shows us how it’s done. The trick is that time out is an exercise in proving to the child that you are in charge. There is a simple formula for it and you have to follow it exactly.
1) Time out is one minute for every year of the child’s age. No more, no less.
2) Time out happens in the same spot every time, and it consists of :
* child sitting alone, not getting up;
* no one talking to the child AT ALL FOR ANY REASON NOT ONE SYLLABLE DON’T EVEN LOOK AT HER;
* Time-out starts again every time the child gets up, and the child MUST SIT for the entire time period.
I think the big mistake is talking to the child. They can scream some pretty outrageous things at you to get a response and you just cannot reply at all, not one word. If you reply you are acknowledging your child’s right to discuss the matter with you.
You’re in charge, and you’re not gong to discuss it. She knew the penalty, that’s the penalty, and until she does the penalty nothing else will happen.
Kid shouts, swears, spits, whatever, ignore.
Kid gets up you go pick her up, don’t say a word, walk her back to time out and start the clock again. (Having a literal clock, a timer, helps.)
DO NOT CAVE. If you give in after an hour, she’ll learn that an hour is your limit. And she’ll scream for an hour every time and be in charge again. So be willing to spend the day at it, not talking to her, not doing anything until she has sat on that spot for four minutes.
Once she caves then you’ll both learn that you’re in charge. She really does have to do what you say if you’re not willing to do anything else until she does. I think we had to do one or two epic time outs with Ren before she figured out we really meant it, and now most times she sits there because she knows. She can spend an hour and four minutes, or she can spend four minutes, but she’s doing the time.
She still misbehaves, but the time-out looms.
Why do you ask her questions that you already know the answer to? Why not just say “Hey, please don’t pull the toilet paper book marks out.” or “Can you please wash the purple marker off the floor? Thanks.” Rather than clamping down on the lying (which is developmentally normal) just remove the opportunity to lie.
I mean, if cute husband did something that bothered you would you say “Did you do XYZ?” when you already knew he did, or would you just say “hey, when you do XYZ it means that I have to then do PQR, so can you not do that? Thanks.”
Laine — I am giving her the opportunity to lie so that she can stop herself from doing it. It is developmentally normal to lie, but it’s also my job to teach her that it’s not acceptable. I want her to learn to take responsibility for her actions and to answer truthfully when asked whether she did something.
I agree with Liz on both subjects: Time-out procedure as well as calling out my children on a lie.
I too want my children to think about their lie, why they are lying and do they really think the consequences of lying are worth it all. My oldest is terrible at telling a lie. She tries but doesn’t execute the task very well. My youngest can pretty much convince herself that her lie or being sneaky is ok with everyone else cuz it is to her. That isn’t acceptable and certainly shouldn’t be glossed over with a “please don’t do ________ again.”
Lying is part of development for a child but it can quickly escalate into something far more devious as I’ve seen happen with my aunt’s granddaughter.
Ren is one smart cookie. She’s definitely got skillz in negotiation and manipulation!
BTW…I love LOVE Ren is so protective of her baby sister. Eden is a lucky little girl to have the Bigs looking out for her!
Oh I wish I had a big sister like Ren!
Laine, I think you make a good point, but I agree with Liz. As adults, we’re expected to be truthful or there will be consequences. If someone steals $10,000 from his employer, he can lie all he wants, but no one is going to say, “Hey, next time, can you just not do that?” The sooner kids learn that it’s not OK to lie, the more respect they’ll have for rules and other people. Being truthful not only takes a lot of responsibility, but courage too, and I think that’s a great character trait for kids to learn.
Liz – you f-ing ROCK my world. I will pay for Sunbeam to stay with your kids if you come be my supernanny for a day.
Pretty please?
I’ll make chocolate cake…
Sometimes I come into a room and my 4 year old whips her hands behind her back and yells “NOTHING!!!!.” Before I even ask what she is doing.
Timeout at our house is much the same but I have to put her in another room so I don’t have to listen to the screaming up close. And while it is a four minute limit, if she has not stopped screaming she must stay until she can control herself. This has resulted in her sometimes putting herself in time out as she knows she is out of control. She steps off the stairs when she has regained her composure. Makes me think of crate training
Or the “turtle technique” they espouse in first grade.
Direct? Yes. Rude? I don’t think so. I applaud Ren for standing up for her sister in such a polite manner and good for you for not glossing it over with the woman. I’ve been complimenting kids who stay back and ask if it’s OK to come over and pet our dogs. If kids can do it with dogs, I’m sure adults can learn to stay back and ask if it’s OK to touch a baby.
my oldest is so much like Ren–and as much as I get frustrated with her independence–I know it will pay off when she is older–but getting to that point sometimes kills me.
I’ve said both those things…hmmm.
I wish I’d had a Ren around when Peeper was tiny, to keep peoples’ hands off of her.
I certainly wouldn’t apologize or correct her, I’d probably even be saying (for the stranger to hear,) “That’s right honey, we have to be careful with the baby….”
Oh, and I should add that as much as I hated strangers touching her when she was little (and still do to some extent, but I’m much more relaxed about it now), we are compeletely laid back about germs of the pet and floor variety.
Old lady in Target? Get away from my baby, Typhoid Mary!
Rattle (or now, food) on the restaurant floor? Eh, pick it up and give it back.
I figure the floor doesn’t have RSV.
Again with the gummy bears! She slays me. And I too wish I had a big sister like Ren. Your Eden will always know she is protected, by her whole family. Oh such love!
Timeouts can be challenging, but I have always stuck to my guns and now, at 6 and 4, all I have to do it point to the direction of the timeout chair and they know…and they know I won’t budge, so they do it
Did that woman actually continue touching Eden after Ren told her she was sick?? That amazes me some people have that much gumption. I wouldn’t even pet someone else’s dog unless they said it was okay, let alone a newborn…wow. Good thing for that woman you did not get there in time, because she could have been faced with much harsher words than Ren gave her. And I have to admit, as much as I hate to, that my first instinct would have been to smooth it over, if that were my daughter saying that, and reading more and more of your posts, Damomma, I know I must stop doing that and let my kids have their voices be heard and not apologize for it!
Honestly I really don’t get the touching of strangers. I have never in my life touch someone’s kid, heck even when I go to touch my cousins babies I ask permission. Really when did RESPECT became overrated?
I don’t understand! Would you stick your hands in an adults face? How is it ok to do that to a newborn. Arrgggh. I used to feel bad about telling people not to touch my son, I don’t know why. I should have taken a lesson or two from Ren…:) And OH my god, I read that article you posted on twitter about the guy slapping that 2 YEAR OLD in the face….. There would be no forgiving. I can’t even imagine what would happen to him if that was my kid… That guy would be toast.
Anyways, good time out lesson! I love watching Supernanny. Whenever I need a pick me up, I love watching that show, makes me feel a teeny bit better…
Just wondering if you have made sure it’s okay to Purell a baby’s hands. I’ve heard that stuff does nasty things if internalized and I have no idea what your policy is on keeping your baby’s hands out of her mouth, but I thought I should mention it just in case.
My favorite response when my children as me the same question again and again, even if they phrase it differently. “I”ve already given you an answer to that queston.” Sounds simple but it actually works.
Am I imagining things, or did Mary go through a similar-but-different period after Ren was born?
(soapbox) I actually get very, very upset at the idea that an adult feels as though they are absolutely allowed to touch a baby/toddler/child. I mean, of course that’s not an across the board statement, but for strangers in public….I just feel like them waltzing up and stroking a baby cheek or tousling toddler hair or ticking an older kid — I get that the intention is probably 100% positive, but I don’t think it’s honoring to the child’s — not humanity, exactly, but their PERSON-NESS. I guess it makes me sad that some adults haven’t taken the time to realize that children are people and worthy of respect and that, hey, you probably wouldn’t like it if a stranger in the mall strolled up and chucked you under the chin — again, this is just a sad, nerve-touchy area for me, so, you know, grain of salt. And good for Renna (and, by extension, you) for knowing how to use her words so perfectly in that situation.
When I read Ren stories, I keep thinking how articulate she is. My daughter Jadyn is about a month older than Ren but she doesn’t put those kinds of thoughts and words together. And I think, “Am I not talking with her enough? Is it because Jadyn is a first and doesn’t have an older sibling? Am I not reading enough books with her? Where am I going wrong?”
In my weak and tired moments, parenthood is such a complexity of comparison. *sigh*
Amanda — “In my weak and tired moments, parenthood is such a complexity of comparison.” AAAAAAAAMEN to that, Sister! Happens to me every day.
I bet if we were together in a room there’d be something I’d watch you do and think, “Man … why can’t I do that?” or look at your kid and think, “Why doesn’t my kid do that?”
We’re merciless on ourselves, we mothers.
I think that this little onesie would be right up Eden’s alley.
http://shop.cafepress.com/design/18296869
What a hoot! Love the single-minded determination to get gummy bears. Ren is a force to be reckoned with.
This is sooo just like our son Robert!
I consoled myself that the lying is normal, the tactlessness too, the cattering also, the bargaining…it’s so Robert!!
Thanks for giving me this insight! My family feels less loony now!!
I learn so much from you, thanks. The time out rules I know, and am stern with, but I have been taking Lanie’s approach, I know you did this, it’s not nice / messy / etc, please don’t do it again. But to give the chance to lie to teach from it – brilliant! Next time the blue marker appears in our kitchen flour grout, I’ll give it a whirl! =)
Great post! I look forward to stopping in and ‘visiting’ you again! Have a great day!